Return-Path: Delivered-To: craig@sbc-85.com Received: from gator4254.hostgator.com by gator4254.hostgator.com with LMTP id aLMdOtOm8GP5wQcAcizydQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 04:22:11 -0600 Return-path: Envelope-to: craig@sbc-85.com Delivery-date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 04:22:11 -0600 Received: from mail-wm1-f52.google.com ([209.85.128.52]:42698) by gator4254.hostgator.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1pTKM6-002dMH-QZ for craig@sbc-85.com; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 04:22:11 -0600 Received: by mail-wm1-f52.google.com with SMTP id az5-20020a05600c600500b003dc52fed235so284132wmb.1 for ; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 02:22:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=yNEcwqp5R1kerF8/ES7ZfjCnppRD7WWaf1fmX/DoACM=; b=OrlRo5SfNtbhOoKBbehyY1El/mABhhKYI8F58mkVQkM4A8LvB1gnklD3KYjuDRPnTg VW1AILkcldBL/AtDGxwrsLxmUE5E6Y6pH6WO7q9WzA3hKMTcMXfyps3MIHxg7NUeQFPL XvfBP8K4FlevfoUUShixnrUzHBmQ7uSiWczZHuCIziV/+SwaCGaS4ZGdiVzh+AjiZ1AX ejjkecsJ8EACcWalvITclODXuAq5HN597MtCHMqgOL5eGYwlStVBnCVHzPAXBSnnHHc9 q75Q/3rkncoao1AdSTImsT/o2Sdcy4Go9QIuy31vqKPh/ecAns4CUkWMzWKpvrtdt7WW bZ6g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=yNEcwqp5R1kerF8/ES7ZfjCnppRD7WWaf1fmX/DoACM=; b=jNCtyLSfDw2n2vcfJ2hCLfaK8yumKVbmXpfLIPR2/Z53caJD4+GIW5Uvup7Qw9OYzZ pRHqjzfv2Mp+JNSkKaajkbGHYkhPHGfzj/6UZL5HA4fd7AtvdjyjX1NEfp4DsBiJusjl UDgBdzEco24xXKzz7s6aGt8eiT2WOaBLPzXyB6tIaLiOdCk1ILoLwqFdC17tQddYMATH 6ZQ0nVozDsfqzcOVgMjlGu8z8iV3Yi+n3DsnO6kvS6wttK69Y+yr10sItftJeuPQQrgg 8V+XywYaoRSO+59aZ8hi1GaEYb6qZ08kIoFqyWCGhJ/V8+dH3PrUU9CWsQi67TGeZ1zw 2/Rg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVn9apo9TUAAnYMOAKk80fY+B9Rv8/LS1/47M6aLqLaMjNLcUV1 zGWpZ7GU0oYc96zn//fA/bvxKsTsQXIITw9R+jM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set/jofPkXVMmKkkPT9XWSV9k3vRx1OmTPJ403XGCS8XKEkNeZ39OziX4Nrz1WPXFquO7JLnbUybYmTQomb73lqE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:a02:b0:3df:dc12:9684 with SMTP id z2-20020a05600c0a0200b003dfdc129684mr736457wmp.22.1676715719142; Sat, 18 Feb 2023 02:21:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6A7E7BDD9FCB49FA98A8C58A597CA0AE@LM010> <909E53264E3C448D847C80B5D3A94279@LM010> In-Reply-To: <909E53264E3C448D847C80B5D3A94279@LM010> From: Jon Hales Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2023 10:21:49 +0000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: intellec 8 To: Sid Jones Cc: Mattis Lind , SBC-85 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d4314a05f4f6cc4f" X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 X-Spam-Score: 8 X-Spam-Bar: / X-Spam-Flag: NO --000000000000d4314a05f4f6cc4f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mattis, Sid, cc Craig Just to let everyone know that the two extender boards were delivered this morning. They were well packed and arrived in perfect condition. When the weather is a bit more favourable - too dark indoors and too blustery outdoors - I'll photograph the extenders with a couple of the Zendex types I have for Multibus systems - there may be some ideas that you would find interesting. Sid: We need to discuss whether I despatch one to you or you collect it in due course. Regards Jon On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 15:46, Sid Jones wrote: > Would you care to send them to Mr Hales, please? > > His immediate need might be greater than mine =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve stil= l got to get my > case back from the panel beater/sprayer. > > And build a 1702A programmer! > > If that=E2=80=99s OK, Jon =E2=80=93 let me know the cost and I can transf= er money... > > (I=E2=80=99ve just read Jon=E2=80=99s email =E2=80=93 OK for me! Perhaps = a road trip to the East > is called for...) > > Regards > > Sid > > *From:* Mattis Lind > *Sent:* Friday, February 10, 2023 12:34 PM > *To:* Sid Jones > *Cc:* Jon Hales ; SBC-85 > *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 > > Hello! > > The cheapest rate I can find is for non-traceable mail. It is 10 euros up > to 500gram. Traceable small packages are 15 euros for up to 1kg. > > I think that two boards and some packing material would be less than 500 > gram. > > /Mattis > > Den fre 10 feb. 2023 kl 12:43 skrev Sid Jones < > jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>: > >> What an excellent idea! >> >> I=E2=80=99d be up for that! >> >> In other news, I=E2=80=99m rewiring my intellec 4 mod 40 because the ori= ginal >> mains connections are just lethal... >> >> I=E2=80=99m adding a blanking plate across the mains outlet for an IEC c= onnector. >> >> Might be able to get more made if required? >> >> Also I=E2=80=99ve got some Molex connectors for the wiring harness and I= =E2=80=99m >> looking at a crimp tool for the inserts. >> >> The pukka device is =C2=A3400, but cheaper equivalants are available. >> >> Details will be provided, but I might have the facility to terminate >> leads for use with the original wiring connectors. >> >> Regards >> >> Sid >> >> >> >> *From:* Jon Hales >> *Sent:* Thursday, February 09, 2023 9:26 PM >> *To:* Sid Jones >> *Cc:* Mattis Lind ; SBC-85 >> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >> >> Hi Mattis >> >> Congratulations. I'd like to buy one. If Sid is also wanting one, I >> suggest you mail both boards to one of us and we sort out postage in UK. >> >> I think I have the socket already, but need to check the pin spacing. >> >> So, when you work out the cost of shipping to UK, please check it would >> allow for two boards. >> >> Regards >> >> Jon >> >> On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, 20:34 Sid Jones, >> wrote: >> >>> I could be very tempted... >>> >>> What might the shipping cost be, please? >>> >>> I=E2=80=99m in the UK. >>> >>> I will take a look at the lines and check the differences. >>> >>> (And where did you get the socket? Did it require a bit of pin >>> persuasion to connect to the board?) >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Sid >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Mattis Lind >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 09, 2023 7:48 PM >>> *To:* SBC-85 >>> *Cc:* Sid Jones ; Jon Hales >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >>> >>> Hello! >>> >>> I designed my own extender and it arrived today so I spent som time >>> soldering and testing it. It looks like it works fine. But it is hard t= o >>> tell for sure since my Intellec has some kind of trouble with the front >>> panel. It behaves exactly as before though. It is just HASL. Not ENIG. = 2um >>> ENIG was quite a lot more expensive and I wasn=E2=80=99t intending to u= se it that >>> much so I stayed at HASL. >>> >>> I have four more bare boards if anyone likes one. They are 10 euros >>> plus shipping to cover my actual costs. >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >>> >>> torsdag 2 februari 2023 skrev SBC-85 : >>> >>>> The backplane for the intellec 4/40 and the 8/80 are different, but to >>>> my knowledge the cards are the same dimensions. a straight through >>>> extension card should be fine, but if the 8/80 doubled up (front/back) >>>> voltage rails like the +/- 12V are shorted together on the front/back,= that >>>> would cause problems in the 4/40 where those lines are signals >>>> >>>> While I made the power traces wider, I did not short and solder side / >>>> component side traces together except possibly the ground (which I thi= nk is >>>> the same on the 4/40 and 8/80 backplane. >>>> >>>> I hope to get back to my intellec boards over the weekend (depending o= n >>>> the weather). >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:13 AM, Sid Jones >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>> Yup, money ain=E2=80=99t what it used to be... >>>> >>>> I purchased a new Series III in 1981 for about =C2=A315,000 then. (It= =E2=80=99s >>>> still in my garage. Still waiting for it to earn its value back..) >>>> >>>> (But it did help pay for a slightly cheaper Porsche 944 in 1982!) >>>> >>>> I wonder if the intellecs used the same basic bus for 8 and 4 bit... >>>> And extender would not need to know the actual signals. Just the conne= ctor >>>> and depth? >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Sid >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Jon Hales >>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 31, 2023 9:22 PM >>>> *To:* Mattis Lind >>>> *Cc:* Sid Jones ; craig@sbc-85.com >>>> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >>>> >>>> Hi Mattis, cc Sid and Craig. >>>> >>>> I was already familiar with the story about your Intellec 8/80. The >>>> story is, as we say, 'the stuff of legends'. It's hard to imagine it w= ould >>>> happen these days. In a recent VCF Forum discussion, Herb Johnson ment= ioned >>>> that your Monitor code is version 4.0 and that he and Bill Beech are >>>> working on disassembly. The discussion is under 'Pre-Altair' and was >>>> started by Roland Huisman some years ago. >>>> >>>> On the topic of what value we have attached to money at different >>>> times, my wife and I bought our first house in UK in 1978. In that yea= r, >>>> the same amount of GB Pounds (same as the price of a small house for a >>>> family) could have bought a basic-specification MDS Series-II. This co= mes >>>> from a copy of Intel's 1978 price lists. >>>> >>>> A design for a bus extender would be helpful for anyone dealing with >>>> Intellec systems. This is particularly relevant given the Intellec >>>> backplane slots have specific functions, so the boards cannot be moved >>>> around to allow signals to be probed. I'm aware that S-100 slots have >>>> different assignments for the 2 x 50 contacts, but wouldn't an S-100 >>>> extender have some potential? >>>> >>>> I have a third-party (Xentek) Multibus I extender board that was >>>> (intended to be) fitted with relays and switches to enable or disable = power >>>> to the board under test, as well as some multi-LED displays to provide= a >>>> visual indication of activity - although I should emphasise that I hav= e >>>> just the bare board with no documentation and no components with which= to >>>> populate it. Given the capacity of today's test equipment perhaps it's= not >>>> of any practical benefit, but I found it interesting to think about th= e >>>> potential of an 'advanced' bus extender. >>>> >>>> As I mentioned briefly, I have detailed photos of two Intellec 8/80s, >>>> access to some documentation including schematic drawings and dumps of >>>> EPROMs (from only one 8/80 and in that case held in two 2716s). Would = there >>>> be any value in my placing these items on my Google Drive for a week o= r two? >>>> >>>> What I don't have is software for the Intellecs. I have tried to locat= e >>>> the Intel InSite library of routines, but with no success. >>>> >>>> Enough for now. >>>> >>>> All the best >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 09:26, Mattis Lind wrote= : >>>> >>>>> Hello everyone! >>>>> >>>>> A short introduction: >>>>> >>>>> My name is Mattis Lind, I live in Sweden and have an interest in old >>>>> computers. My collection of various vintage computers can be seen on >>>>> www.datormuseum.se, unfortunately not updated for quite some time. >>>>> Almost 30 years ago I bought an Intellec 8/80 on a flea-market in >>>>> Stockholm for the equivalent of 10 USD. It has been sitting on the sh= elf >>>>> since then and just recently I thought I should do something about it= . My >>>>> plan is to connect it to a teletype and perhaps run BASIC or MicroChe= ss >>>>> just for fun. >>>>> >>>>> The Intellec was torn down into pieces and cleaned. Then I started to >>>>> test the PSUs. The crowbar of the 5V PSU was set to trip at almost 9V= so I >>>>> adjusted it down to a more reasonable level. Then I also found that t= he 5V >>>>> supply itself didn't regulate at all. After some head scratching I >>>>> discovered that the driver transistor was leaky. With a new power >>>>> transistor in place it regulated fine. I put everything together and = tried >>>>> the machine with boards installed. >>>>> >>>>> The front panel was acting strangely. Under certain conditions I coul= d >>>>> enter data into memory and examine it, but it didn't work as was indi= cated >>>>> in the manual. At one point it was possible to single step a one >>>>> instruction program that jumped back to itself. I checked the front = panel >>>>> itself. It looked like at least all switches and LEDs were working bu= t it >>>>> looked like there was some logic on the front panel controller in the= bus >>>>> that wasn't doing what it was supposed to. To get access to do measur= ements >>>>> on the board I needed an extender board. >>>>> >>>>> My idea was to quickly draw one up in KiCAD. I have done quite many >>>>> layouts in KiCAD so I wasn't expecting it to take that long. But one >>>>> obstacle is to get the proper measurements of the size of boards and >>>>> connectors, it takes some time to get this right and it is easy to ma= ke >>>>> mistakes. >>>>> >>>>> I did some googling on Intellec and found the interesting pages by >>>>> Craig. So I contacted him on the subject of KiCAD layout for the Inte= llec >>>>> sized PCBs. >>>>> >>>>> So this is the reason for ending up here! >>>>> >>>>> BTW I also have an Eberhard 1702 programmer and I also had problems >>>>> with some 1702 chips. But this is my only 1702 programmer so I cannot >>>>> compare it with others. I thought the EPROM was marginal. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> /Mattis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Den m=C3=A5n 30 jan. 2023 kl 14:15 skrev Sid Jones < >>>>> jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>: >>>>> >>>>>> Thanks for the email, Jon. >>>>>> >>>>>> My intellec 4 mod 40 (S/N 027!) is getting a ground up refurbishment= , >>>>>> due to having dropped off a shelf a decade or two ago... >>>>>> >>>>>> I=E2=80=99m building a high-speed tape reader simulator and I really= fancy a >>>>>> crack at a home-brew 1702A programmer. >>>>>> >>>>>> (Stealing from the best, of course...) >>>>>> >>>>>> What I=E2=80=99m really missing is the paper tape RAM based assemble= r that >>>>>> came with the box. Should have kept a copy of the tape when I left c= ollege! >>>>>> >>>>>> Regarding the MDS systems, I=E2=80=99ve got a MDS-800 box, no termin= al, no >>>>>> floppy drives, but I do have a Series III and a white Series II that= I was >>>>>> going to use for spares. With drives. >>>>>> >>>>>> And a stack of floppies =E2=80=98obtained=E2=80=99 from various clie= nts. And the odd >>>>>> intel manual or three.. >>>>>> >>>>>> Perhaps it=E2=80=99ll be time for a visit to sunny Cambridge sometim= e soon? >>>>>> >>>>>> And how do I join the Google group, please? These new-fangled =E2=80= =98social >>>>>> media=E2=80=99 malarkey can get past me... >>>>>> >>>>>> Regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Sid >>>>>> >>>>>> PS 70th birthday present (to myself) pictured! Rockwell Echo >>>>>> cancelling chip with Star Trek =E2=80=98Enterprise=E2=80=99 in the l= ayers! Geek cred >>>>>> squared! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *From:* Jon Hales >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2023 11:32 AM >>>>>> *To:* Sid Jones >>>>>> *Cc:* craig@sbc-85.com ; Mattis Lind >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi Sid, copied to Mattis and Craig >>>>>> >>>>>> Many thanks for your message. You are in a fortunate position to hav= e >>>>>> a 4/40. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was planning to write to you and Mattis, copied to Craig, to >>>>>> explain (briefly) where I'm coming from. >>>>>> >>>>>> About ten years ago I was looking for a 386 CPU and found an eBay >>>>>> seller in UK offering an Intel Multibus board containing a 386 and 3= 87 for >>>>>> about the amount I had expected to pay for the CPU. Fast forward to = about >>>>>> 2020, when I bought a 386 board from Northwest Technical, which came= with a >>>>>> set of original ROMs and a copy of the manual. I was able to get th= e >>>>>> original board working by copying the ROMs. Along the way I had coll= ected >>>>>> several Intel Model 310 86/286 systems running Xenix and iRMX-86. >>>>>> >>>>>> I realise that Mattis was even more fortunate in buying a Intellec >>>>>> 8/80 for about the amount I paid for the 386 board. >>>>>> >>>>>> Around seven years ago I started volunteering at the Centre for >>>>>> Computing History in Cambridge (developing an archive of magnetic me= dia, >>>>>> which no-one else seemed interested in preserving; I live near Cambr= idge). >>>>>> The museum already had an Intellec 8/80. I collected another 8/80 fr= om a >>>>>> donor who had stored a quantity of Intel development systems after t= hey >>>>>> were scrapped by his employer. This gave me an opportunity to partia= lly >>>>>> dismantle it (for cleaning and inspection) and photograph the boards= and >>>>>> PSUs before it went to the museum. More recently, I photographed the= boards >>>>>> and chassis of the museum's 8/80 to copy the images to Craig. The PR= OM >>>>>> board had been adapted to 2716s. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Cambridge museum has a fully-operational Apple 1 reproduction. A >>>>>> friend of the museum populated the board with period-correct chips a= s well >>>>>> as the PSU and adding a tape interface. I donated a Hitachi mono mon= itor to >>>>>> provide a display. This is a permanent exhibit, alongside an Altair = 8800, >>>>>> an 8800b and an Imsai 8080. Unlike the Intellec 8/80s, although they= have >>>>>> (at least) comparable historical significance, which remain in stora= ge. >>>>>> This is the background to propose an Intellec 8/80 reproduction syst= em for >>>>>> the museum. >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig's initiative is an opportunity not-to-be-missed to acquire the >>>>>> basis of a reproduction Intellec. As a 'data specialist', my underst= anding >>>>>> of electronics is basic. However, I have had a good deal of success = at >>>>>> building up useful systems from bare boards. I would be ready to org= anise >>>>>> orders from JLCPCB, with which I have an account. >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig and I have been in contact for some time via an 'email group' >>>>>> called Intel Devsys on Google Groups. This developed from the effort= s of >>>>>> Bill Beech, Richard Main and Herb Johnson (and others) to support ef= forts >>>>>> to get MDS systems working. There are now some members of the group = in UK. >>>>>> I have contributed disk images, based partly on the museum's collect= ion, >>>>>> and scans of various Intel documents. Mark Ogden (ogdenpm on Github)= has >>>>>> done much to organise the collection of software and manuals. Althou= gh the >>>>>> emphasis has been mainly on Series II MDS systems, it would appear a= good >>>>>> approach to suggest you both join this group. As well as providing s= upport >>>>>> to each other, the group has been successful at bringing together >>>>>> information on Bill Beech's Google Drive. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sid: I know someone who built himself a Martin Eberhard programmer >>>>>> for 1702s. I could put you in touch with him if you want an easy way= to get >>>>>> code into these chips. (I know, it would be better to do this via an >>>>>> Intellec or a iUP-103 Universal Programmer with the appropriate inte= rface - >>>>>> I have an iUP-103, but it's only equipped for 2716s). >>>>>> >>>>>> Best regards >>>>>> >>>>>> Jon >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 10:34, Sid Jones < >>>>>> jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for the update! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> FYI: I=E2=80=99m refurbishing an intel intellec 4/40 that I used in= college >>>>>>> between 1974-1977. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And the mission creep sets in, so I have to build a RS232-20 mA >>>>>>> current loop interface and a 1702A EPROM programmer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Use a 2372A board with flying leads to drop into the ROM monitor >>>>>>> socket, to get over the bit rot in the original 1702A devices until= I can >>>>>>> programme some more!. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW: I have a source of 1702A =E2=80=98new, old stock=E2=80=99 EPRO= Ms in Sweden. A >>>>>>> nice gentleman called Bjorn Lundin has a stash of 500+ !!! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This will be after the case has been cleaned, de-bent and repainted= . >>>>>>> Small accident in the 1990=E2=80=99s involving a weak shelf and gra= vity... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do have a spare set of 4040/4289(?) and 4201 devices from the uni >>>>>>> project and after being inspired by Craig=E2=80=99s work, I=E2=80= =99m giving some thought >>>>>>> to a =E2=80=98new=E2=80=99 CPU board for the 4040. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Replace the 4x1702A with a 2732A, modern logic rather than the >>>>>>> electron guzzling 3205 and other devices, socket everything and mak= e a new >>>>>>> drop-in board for my intel box. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Madness, or what? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sid >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* craig@sbc-85.com >>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2023 11:25 PM >>>>>>> *To:* 'Jon Hales' ; 'Mattis Lind' >>>>>>> ; 'Sid Jones' >>>>>>> *Subject:* intellec 8 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Jon, Mattis, & Sid >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am not sure you are all aware of each other yet=E2=80=A6 but I th= ink >>>>>>> everyone has some level of interest in making one or more of the >>>>>>> reproduction boards for the intellect and, since you are somewhat c= lose >>>>>>> together, it may make sense to order boards directly from the board= house >>>>>>> and redistribute amongst yourselves. Sid and Jon are in the UK, Ma= ttis is >>>>>>> in Sweden=E2=80=94two of my favorite countries to visit by the way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As for the boards, I have been distracted lately but hope to get >>>>>>> back to get them fully tested. the PROM, RAM, Motherboard, and 800= 8 CPU >>>>>>> all look OK, I need to build and test the 8080 CPU and a simple car= d >>>>>>> extender board. I haven=E2=80=99t even started a front panel board= or either of >>>>>>> the I/O boards and have no intention yet to make the eprom programm= ing >>>>>>> board. I expect the remaining boards may continue to drag out, or = maybe >>>>>>> someone else will decide to make them before me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If Sid and Mattis have not joined the intel development google >>>>>>> group, that remains to be the most centralized and deepest well of >>>>>>> information. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> regards to all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> craig >>>>>>> >>>>>> --000000000000d4314a05f4f6cc4f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mattis, Sid, cc Craig

Just to let= everyone know that the two extender boards were delivered this morning. Th= ey were well packed and arrived in perfect condition.

Wh= en the weather is a bit more favourable - too dark indoors and too blustery= outdoors - I'll photograph the extenders with a couple of the Zendex t= ypes I have for Multibus systems - there may be some ideas that you would f= ind interesting.

Sid: We need to discuss whether I d= espatch one to you or you collect it in due course.

Regards

Jon

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 15= :46, Sid Jones <jonesth= echip@logicmagic.co.uk> wrote:
Would you care to send them to Mr Hales, please?
=C2=A0
His immediate need might be greater than mine =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve s= till got to get my=20 case back from the panel beater/sprayer.
=C2=A0
And build a 1702A programmer!
=C2=A0
If that=E2=80=99s OK, Jon =E2=80=93 let me know the cost and I can tra= nsfer money...
=C2=A0
(I=E2=80=99ve just read Jon=E2=80=99s email =E2=80=93 OK for me! Perha= ps a road trip to the East is=20 called for...)
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2023 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hello!=20
=C2=A0
The cheapest rate I can find is for non-traceable mail. It is 10 euros= up=20 to 500gram. Traceable small packages are 15 euros for up to 1kg.
=C2=A0
I think that two boards and some packing material would be less than 5= 00=20 gram.
=C2=A0
/Mattis
=C2=A0
Den fre 10 feb. 2023 kl 12:43 skrev S= id Jones=20 <jone= sthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>:
What an excellent idea!
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99d be up for that!
=C2=A0
In other news, I=E2=80=99m rewiring my intellec 4 mod 40 because the= original=20 mains connections are just lethal...
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m adding a blanking plate across the mains outlet for an I= EC=20 connector.
=C2=A0
Might be able to get more made if required?
=C2=A0
Also I=E2=80=99ve got some Molex connectors for the wiring harness a= nd I=E2=80=99m=20 looking at a crimp tool for the inserts.
=C2=A0
The pukka device is =C2=A3400, but cheaper equivalants are available= .
=C2=A0
Details will be provided, but I might have the facility to terminate= =20 leads for use with the original wiring connectors.
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
From: Jon Hales
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2023 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hi Mattis=20
=C2=A0
Congratulations. I'd like to buy one. If Sid is also wanting one= , I=20 suggest you mail both boards to one of us and we sort out postage in UK.<= /div>
=C2=A0
I think I have the socket already, but need to check the pin=20 spacing.
=C2=A0
So, when you work out the cost of shipping to UK, please check it wo= uld=20 allow for two boards.
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Jon
=C2=A0
On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, 20:34 Sid Jones= , <jo= nesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk> wrote:
I could be very tempted...
=C2=A0
What might the shipping cost be, please?
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m in the UK.
=C2=A0
I will take a look at the lines and check the differences.
=C2=A0
(And where did you get the socket? Did it require a bit of pin=20 persuasion to connect to the board?)
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2023 7:48 PM
To: SBC-85
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hello= !=20
=C2=A0
I designed my own extender and it arrived today so I spent som tim= e=20 soldering and testing it. It looks like it works fine. But it is hard t= o=20 tell for sure since my Intellec has some kind of trouble with the front= =20 panel. It behaves exactly as before though. It is just HASL. Not ENIG. = 2um=20 ENIG was quite a lot more expensive and I wasn=E2=80=99t intending to u= se it that=20 much so I stayed at HASL.
=C2=A0
I have four more bare boards if anyone likes one.=C2=A0 They are 1= 0=20 euros plus shipping to cover my actual costs.
=C2=A0
/Mattis


torsdag 2 februari 2023 skrev SBC-85 <craig@sbc-85.com>:
The backplane for the intellec 4/40 and the 8/80 are= =20 different, but to my knowledge the cards are the same dimensions.=C2= =A0 a=20 straight through extension card should be fine, but if the 8/80 doubl= ed up=20 (front/back) voltage rails like the +/- 12V are shorted together on t= he=20 front/back, that would cause problems in the 4/40 where those lines a= re=20 signals
=C2=A0
While I made the power traces wider, I did not short= and=20 solder side / component side traces together except possibly the grou= nd=20 (which I think is the same on the 4/40 and 8/80 backplane.
=C2=A0
I hope to get back to my intellec boards over the we= ekend=20 (depending on the weather).
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Craig
=EF=BB=BF=20
Yup, money ain=E2=80=99t what it used to be...
=C2=A0
I purchased a new Series III in 1981 for about =C2=A315,000 th= en. (It=E2=80=99s=20 still in my garage. Still waiting for it to earn its value back..)<= /div>
=C2=A0
(But it did help pay for a slightly cheaper Porsche 944 in=20 1982!)
=C2=A0
I wonder if the intellecs used the same basic bus for 8 and 4= =20 bit... And extender would not need to know the actual signals. Just= the=20 connector and depth?
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2023 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hi Mattis, cc Sid and Craig.=20
=C2=A0
I was already familiar with the story about your Intellec 8/80= . The=20 story is, as we say, 'the stuff of legends'. It's hard = to imagine it=20 would happen these days. In a recent VCF Forum discussion, Herb Joh= nson=20 mentioned that your Monitor code is version 4.0 and that he and Bil= l=20 Beech are working on disassembly. The discussion is under 'Pre-= Altair'=20 and was started by Roland Huisman some years ago.
=C2=A0
On the topic of what value we have attached to money at differ= ent=20 times, my wife and I bought our first house in UK in 1978. In that = year,=20 the same amount of GB Pounds (same as the price of a small house fo= r a=20 family) could have bought a basic-specification MDS Series-II. This= =20 comes from a copy of Intel's 1978 price lists.
=C2=A0
A design for a bus extender would be helpful for anyone dealin= g=20 with Intellec systems. This is particularly relevant given the Inte= llec=20 backplane slots have specific functions, so the boards cannot be mo= ved=20 around to allow signals to be probed. I'm aware that S-100 slot= s have=20 different assignments for the 2 x 50 contacts, but wouldn't an = S-100=20 extender have some potential?
=C2=A0
I have a third-party (Xentek) Multibus I extender board that w= as=20 (intended to be) fitted with relays and switches to enable or disab= le=20 power to the board under test, as well as some multi-LED displays t= o=20 provide a visual indication of activity - although I should emphasi= se=20 that I have just the bare board with no documentation and no compon= ents=20 with which to populate it. Given the capacity of today's test e= quipment=20 perhaps it's not of any practical benefit, but I found it inter= esting to=20 think about the potential of an 'advanced' bus extender.
=C2=A0
As I mentioned briefly, I have detailed photos of two Intellec= =20 8/80s, access to some documentation including schematic drawings an= d=20 dumps of EPROMs (from only one 8/80 and in that case held in two 27= 16s).=20 Would there be any value in my placing these items on my Google Dri= ve=20 for a week or two?
=C2=A0
What I don't have is software for the Intellecs. I have tr= ied to=20 locate the Intel InSite library of routines, but with no success. <= /div>
=C2=A0
Enough for now.
=C2=A0
All the best
=C2=A0
Jon
=C2=A0
On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 09:26,= Mattis Lind=20 <mattislind@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone!=20
=C2=A0
A short introduction:
=C2=A0
My name is Mattis Lind, I live in Sweden and have an interes= t in=20 old computers. My collection of various vintage computers can be = seen=20 on www.datormuseum.se, unfortunately not updated for=20 quite some time.
Almost 30 years ago I bought an Intellec 8/80 on a flea-mark= et in=20 Stockholm for the equivalent of 10 USD. It has been sitting on th= e=20 shelf since then and just recently I thought I should do somethin= g=20 about it. My plan is to connect it to a teletype and perhaps run = BASIC=20 or MicroChess just for fun.
=C2=A0
The Intellec was torn down into pieces and cleaned. Then I= =20 started to test the PSUs. The crowbar of the 5V PSU was set to tr= ip at=20 almost 9V so I adjusted it down to a more reasonable level. Then = I=20 also found that the 5V supply itself didn't regulate at all. = After=20 some head scratching I discovered that the driver transistor was= =20 leaky. With a new power transistor in place it regulated fine. I = put=20 everything together and tried the machine with boards installed.= =20
=C2=A0
The front panel was acting strangely. Under certain conditio= ns I=20 could enter data into memory and examine it, but it didn't wo= rk as was=20 indicated in the manual. At one point it was possible to single s= tep a=20 one instruction program that jumped back to itself. I checked the= =20 front=C2=A0 panel itself. It looked like at least all switches an= d=20 LEDs were working but it looked like there was some logic on the = front=20 panel controller in the bus that wasn't doing what it was sup= posed to.=20 To get access to do measurements on the=C2=A0 board I needed an= =20 extender board.
=C2=A0
My idea was to quickly draw one up in KiCAD. I have done qui= te=20 many layouts in KiCAD so I wasn't expecting it to take that l= ong. But=20 one obstacle is to get the proper measurements of the size of boa= rds=20 and connectors, it takes some time to get this right and it is ea= sy to=20 make mistakes.
=C2=A0
I did some googling on Intellec and found the interesting pa= ges=20 by Craig. So I contacted him on the subject of KiCAD layout for t= he=20 Intellec sized PCBs.
=C2=A0
So this is the reason for ending up here!
=C2=A0
BTW I also have an Eberhard 1702 programmer and I also had= =20 problems with some 1702 chips. But this is my only 1702 programme= r so=20 I cannot compare it with others. I thought the EPROM was=20 marginal.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
/Mattis
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Den m=C3=A5n 30 jan. 2023 k= l 14:15 skrev Sid=20 Jones <jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>:
Thanks for the email, Jon.
=C2=A0
My intellec 4 mod 40 (S/N 027!) is getting a ground up=20 refurbishment, due to having dropped off a shelf a decade or tw= o=20 ago...
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m building a high-speed tape reader simulator an= d I really=20 fancy a crack at a home-brew 1702A programmer.
=C2=A0
(Stealing from the best, of course...)
=C2=A0
What I=E2=80=99m really missing is the paper tape RAM base= d assembler=20 that came with the box. Should have kept a copy of the tape whe= n I=20 left college!
=C2=A0
Regarding the MDS systems, I=E2=80=99ve got a MDS-800 box,= no terminal,=20 no floppy drives, but I do have a Series III and a white Series= II=20 that I was going to use for spares. With drives.
=C2=A0
And a stack of floppies =E2=80=98obtained=E2=80=99 from va= rious clients. And=20 the odd intel manual or three..
=C2=A0
Perhaps it=E2=80=99ll be time for a visit to sunny Cambrid= ge sometime=20 soon?
=C2=A0
And how do I join the Google group, please? These new-fang= led=20 =E2=80=98social media=E2=80=99 malarkey can get past me...
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
PS 70th birthday present (to myself) pictured! Rockwell Ec= ho=20 cancelling chip with Star Trek =E2=80=98Enterprise=E2=80=99 in = the layers! Geek cred=20 squared!
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2023 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hi Sid, copied to Mattis and Craig=20
=C2=A0
Many thanks for your message. You are in a fortunate posit= ion=20 to have a 4/40.
=C2=A0
I was planning to write to you and Mattis, copied to Craig= , to=20 explain (briefly) where I'm coming from.
=C2=A0
About ten years ago I was looking for a 386 CPU and found = an=20 eBay seller in UK offering an Intel Multibus board containing a= 386=20 and 387 for about the amount I had expected to pay for the CPU.= Fast=20 forward to about 2020, when I bought a 386 board from Northwest= =20 Technical, which came with a set of original=C2=A0 ROMs and a c= opy=20 of the manual. I was able to get the original board working by= =20 copying the ROMs. Along the way I had collected several Intel M= odel=20 310 86/286 systems running Xenix and iRMX-86.
=C2=A0
I realise that Mattis was even more fortunate in buying a= =20 Intellec 8/80 for about the amount I paid for the 386 board.
=C2=A0
Around seven years ago I started volunteering at the Centr= e for=20 Computing History in Cambridge (developing an archive of magnet= ic=20 media, which no-one else seemed interested in preserving; I liv= e=20 near Cambridge). The museum already had an Intellec 8/80. I=20 collected another 8/80 from a donor who had stored a quantity o= f=20 Intel development systems after they were scrapped by his emplo= yer.=20 This gave me an opportunity to partially dismantle it (for clea= ning=20 and inspection) and photograph the boards and PSUs before it we= nt to=20 the museum. More recently, I photographed the boards and chassi= s of=20 the museum's 8/80 to copy the images to Craig. The PROM boa= rd had=20 been adapted to 2716s.
=C2=A0
The Cambridge museum has a fully-operational Apple 1=20 reproduction. A friend of the museum populated the board with= =20 period-correct chips as well as the PSU and adding a tape inter= face.=20 I donated a Hitachi mono monitor to provide a display. This is = a=20 permanent exhibit, alongside an Altair 8800, an 8800b and an Im= sai=20 8080. Unlike the Intellec 8/80s, although they have (at least)= =20 comparable historical significance, which remain in storage. Th= is is=20 the background to propose an Intellec 8/80 reproduction system = for=20 the museum.
=C2=A0
Craig's initiative is an opportunity not-to-be-missed = to=20 acquire the basis of a reproduction Intellec. As a 'data=20 specialist', my understanding of electronics is basic. Howe= ver, I=20 have had a good deal of success at building up useful systems f= rom=20 bare boards. I would be ready to organise orders from JLCPCB, w= ith=20 which I have an account.
=C2=A0
Craig and I have been in contact for some time via an '= ;email=20 group' called Intel Devsys on Google Groups. This developed= from the=20 efforts of Bill Beech, Richard Main and Herb Johnson (and other= s) to=20 support efforts to get MDS systems working. There are now some= =20 members of the group in UK. I have contributed disk images, bas= ed=20 partly on the museum's collection, and scans of various Int= el=20 documents. Mark Ogden (ogdenpm on Github) has done much to orga= nise=20 the collection of software and manuals. Although the emphasis h= as=20 been mainly on Series II MDS systems, it would appear a good=20 approach to suggest you both join this group. As well as provid= ing=20 support to each other, the group has been successful at bringin= g=20 together information on Bill Beech's Google Drive.
=C2=A0
Sid: I know someone who built himself a Martin Eberhard=20 programmer for 1702s. I could put you in touch with him if you = want=20 an easy way to get code into these chips. (I know, it would be= =20 better to do this via an Intellec or a iUP-103 Universal Progra= mmer=20 with the appropriate interface - I have an iUP-103, but it'= s only=20 equipped for 2716s).
=C2=A0
Best regards
=C2=A0
Jon
=C2=A0
On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 10= :34, Sid=20 Jones <jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>=20 wrote:
Thanks for the update!
=C2=A0
FYI: I=E2=80=99m refurbishing an intel intellec 4/40 tha= t I used in=20 college between 1974-1977.
=C2=A0
And the mission creep sets in, so I have to build a RS23= 2-20=20 mA current loop interface and a 1702A EPROM programmer.
=C2=A0
Use a 2372A board with flying leads to drop into the ROM= =20 monitor socket, to get over the bit rot in the original 1702A= =20 devices until I can programme some more!.
=C2=A0
BTW: I have a source of 1702A =E2=80=98new, old stock=E2= =80=99 EPROMs in=20 Sweden. A nice gentleman called Bjorn Lundin has a stash of 5= 00+=20 !!!
=C2=A0
This will be after the case has been cleaned, de-bent an= d=20 repainted. Small accident in the 1990=E2=80=99s involving a w= eak shelf and=20 gravity...
=C2=A0
I do have a spare set of 4040/4289(?) and 4201 devices f= rom=20 the uni project and after being inspired by Craig=E2=80=99s w= ork, I=E2=80=99m=20 giving some thought to a =E2=80=98new=E2=80=99 CPU board for = the 4040.
=C2=A0
Replace the 4x1702A with a 2732A, modern logic rather th= an=20 the electron guzzling 3205 and other devices, socket everythi= ng=20 and make a new drop-in board for my intel box.
=C2=A0
Madness, or what?
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0

Hi Jon, Mattis, & Sid

=C2=A0

I am not sure you are all aware of eac= h other=20 yet=E2=80=A6 but I think everyone has some level of interest = in making one=20 or more of the reproduction boards for the intellect and, sin= ce=20 you are somewhat close together, it may make sense to order b= oards=20 directly from the board house and redistribute amongst=20 yourselves.=C2=A0 Sid and Jon are in the UK, Mattis is in=20 Sweden=E2=80=94two of my favorite countries to visit by the= =20 way.

=C2=A0

As for the boards, I have been distrac= ted=20 lately but hope to get back to get them fully tested.=C2=A0 t= he=20 PROM, RAM, Motherboard, and 8008 CPU all look OK, I need to b= uild=20 and test the 8080 CPU and a simple card extender board.=C2=A0= I=20 haven=E2=80=99t even started a front panel board or either of= the I/O=20 boards and have no intention yet to make the eprom programmin= g=20 board.=C2=A0 I expect the remaining boards may continue to dr= ag=20 out, or maybe someone else will decide to make them before=20 me.

=C2=A0

If Sid and Mattis have not joined the = intel=20 development google group, that remains to be the most central= ized=20 and deepest well of information.

=C2=A0

regards to all,

=C2=A0

craig

=
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